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Annullate le modifiche di 79.49.34.141 (discussione), riportata alla versione precedente di Zaza
Zaza (rosica | curriculum) (→Monaco will speak italian... only: nuova sezione) |
Zaza (rosica | curriculum) m (Annullate le modifiche di 79.49.34.141 (discussione), riportata alla versione precedente di Zaza) |
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Riga 4:
Are you serious? Only Italian means that all uncy in other languages neither will have monaco? Could we know the reason of this decision? --{{utente:Zaza/firma}} 00:17, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
:Yes, this is just a change needed for Italian right now. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 00:18, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
::Oh, ''"needed"''. Could you explain better than a telegraphic ''"needed"''?
::Moreover, this "monoboonako look" have nothing of monobook, other than file card style on the top and the editor. --{{utente:Zaza/firma}} 00:32, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
:::Ok, what do you think should be done to the skin to make it look more like monobook? Is there anything specific wrong with the "monobook look" version of Monaco that you would like to be changed? [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 00:37, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
::::Angela, you doesn't answer to the main question: '''<u>why do you need this change and why only us.</u>''' This isn't a right behaviour towards us, the admins, and entire Nonciclopedia community.
::::I take advantage for answer to your last mail:
:::# we know very well that Wikipedia going to use Vector as skin, and we are happy if you're working on this side... there's a preview that you could show to me, somewhere?
:::# you've said that ''the skin change is beneficial to new users and leads to many new people signing up and becoming editors''... on past 48 hours, after this skin change, we have about '''one thousand''' of new user, but [http://nonciclopedia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Speciale:Registri&limit=1000&showall=0&type=newusers&month=&year= take a look of how may made at least ONE edit]. One. They've registered '''only''' for change the skin. Common readers that register only for this reason! <br /> Could you still call them '''editors'''? <br /> Before, we had 10-20 registration/day and all of this made contribution. Those were genuine contributors, not the one thousand of your "vision". This fact doesn't lead Nonciclopedia to healty. This lead Nonciclopedia to caos.
:::# you've said also that a registered user can switch to the old skin very easily in their preferences. Thank you. And the unregisterd/anonymous one? For we, readers are important as contributors.
::::Last, but not least, you ask how made this "monoboonako" more similar to monobook... i don't know if it's a joke, because the answer is very simple: use monobook.
::::I really can't understand this change (above all because you don't explain nothing, uh). It was so difficult leave the monobook until, as you said, Wikipedia will going to use Vector and set directly your "monactor"?
::::All community will be grateful if you answer to '''all''' those questions. --{{utente:Zaza/firma}} 01:19, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
:::::The Italian section of Wikia has very few editors (compared to how many you would expect based on the number of Italian-speaking internet users). It also has very few readers who stick around to read more than one page. I think the change of skin for this wiki will make a big difference to the overall health, size, and growth of the Italian community across Wikia. That's why it has been done here. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 01:25, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
::::::Admins keep changing the skin back to normal monaco instead of monobook-look monaco, but you can see the new style [http://nonciclopedia.wikia.com/?useskin=monaco&usetheme=custom here]. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 01:47, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
Angela, you're the only one thinking that that is a monobook-like monaco. What I see there is a monaco-look monaco with messed-up borders. And by setting the theme to "custom" you override the preferences of registered users who were the only ones still allowed to use the real monobook-look monobook which we spent years to work on --{{utente:sanjilops/firma}} 02:30, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
:::::::Ok, I'll try to be clearer and shorter than Zaza was.
:::::::Nonciclopedia: +1000 accounts in 2 days (and counting). One bloody reason: Monobook. This "overbooking" is causing chaos @ Nonci. Angela, read my lips: '''chaos'''. We cannot manage them ''at all''. And it seems they're not going to stop at all. Unless Monobook is set back. You @ Wikia are the only who can break this cycle. Less visits, less money for you.
:::::::Secondly: due to registrations and due welcome's, the Recent Edits page is getting harder and harder to check. I fear some vandalisms passed unnoticed while we, the "Old Guard", were trying to handle the Monaco-generated chaos. This is no good for our well-estabilished reputation over the Italian-speaking Web.
:::::::Is this the way you @ Wikia want to improve "the overall health, size, and growth of the Italian community across Wikia"? Face it, Angela, you're condemning it to a Big Crunch. Plus, with the "hybrid" skin you're making a silly joke of the Monaco move. Is it really that hard, painful and money-losing for you, then, to reverse it to MB?
:::::::For the good of the italophone Wikia, and of its flagship Nonciclopedia: '''bring Monobook back''', for God's sake. All of us will appreciate this move. Then, when Vector becomes the main WP GUI, we'll be more than happy to move to it. But for now, please, keep the status quo.
:::::::Do '''IMHO-based''' marketing reasons really overwhelm the good sense? Does a developer's opinion matter more than thousands of users?
:::::::Basic marketing rule: money talks only because the final users provide its "breath".
:::::::Goodnight. --{{utente:Frank87/Firma}} 02:28, dic 1, 2009 (CET){{VF|1203396}}
::::::::I think there has been some confusion here. When admins change the setting to "default", that puts the wiki back to the <u>normal monaco</u> skin that you see on all wikis. It does ''not'' change the skin to monobook. Instead, all this does is prevent anons seeing the monobook-look which I thought is something you wanted to keep. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 02:40, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
::::::::Account creations always go up when the skin is set to monaco because it's so much easier to find the account creation button and easier to log in. I checked the last 10 new users and 6 of them have not chosen to switch their skin to monobook. I will continue to track these statistics to see whether people are logging in to change the skin, or whether it is because more people have decided to join the wiki to edit. It's too early to tell yet what the effect will be, but I am hoping you will be pleasantly surprised when the [[special:statistics]] show an increase in active editors. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 02:40, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
:::::::::Users are only welcomed when they edit - not just when they make an account. Welcomes are hidden from the default recent changes since they are left by a [[user:Wikia|bot]]. You can also hide logs from recent changes using the [http://nonciclopedia.wikia.com/index.php?title=Speciale:UltimeModifiche&hidelogs=1 nascondi logs] option so these extra welcomes should be invisible unless you choose to [[special:contributions/Wikia|view them]]. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 02:40, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
Angela, I know what I am doing. Let me expose it clearly:
* with the '''default''' theme, anons have monaco and registered users have monobook
* with the '''custom''' theme, ''everybody has monaco''. The fact that you call it "monobook-look" doesn't make it look like monobook at all. That is monaco with gray portlet tabs - not monobook. And I want at least the registered users to be able to use monobook - the '''real''' monobook. --{{utente:sanjilops/firma}} 02:52, dic 1, 2009 (CET){{VF|1203417}}
:Hint: Angela, what if your forecast proves wrong and the users' majority joins only for the skin? --{{utente:Frank87/Firma}} 02:52, dic 1, 2009 (CET){{VF|1203417}}
::Thanks for explaining. I will try to find a way to stop that from happening. It should be that setting the skin to monaco-custom only affects those who were on monaco anyway. If it has no positive effect, then we will need to find another way of improving Wikia in Italian. Do you have any suggestions of what we could do instead? [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 02:56, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
:::I would really like to have any suggestions, but the reality is that we just plain need monobook. It's not that I don't like monaco: I don't mind it on other wikias. But we must have monobook, because:
# we need to emulate wikipedia and to look like other uncyclopedias
# in the years we developed many characteristics on monobook.css and monobook.js that can't be lost
# our readers are used to monobook and to its ressamblance to wikipedia. After the change of skin we received ''hundreds'' of complaints - both here and on Facebook - and there has been no one - ''not even one'' - being glad for the new style. The 6 out of 10 new users that didn't set monobook simply didn't manage to do it: but since they didn't make any edits, they surely have signed up just for that --{{utente:sanjilops/firma}} 03:24, dic 1, 2009 (CET){{VF|1203426}}
The default skin is now set to monobook again since the "monobook look" is not close enough to what you had already created. It was originally made by [[w:c:guildways|GuildWars Wiki]] and probably looks close to the skin they used before monaco, but lacks parts of nonciclopedia's monobook such as the image on the search box and the condividi section and the shop section. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 03:50, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
What about if the left sidebar of monobook was made wider and the usual widgets that you see there were added? Would that be a better solution? It would mean that the ads that unregistered users on the right of monobook would disappear. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 03:47, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
:I'm not sure of what you mean, but as long as the skin is monobook we can talk about it. I'm very glad you understood our reasons. I'll be delighted to discuss it with you tomorrow - if you don't mind, I'm going to bed now ;) --{{utente:sanjilops/firma}} 04:02, dic 1, 2009 (CET){{VF|1203433}}
=== What monobook needs ===
::Goodnight! For tomorrow, what I think is important and missing from monobook is:
* [[w:special:createwiki|Crea un nuova wiki]] link at the top of the page so that Italian speakers know they can make their own wiki, and to help broaden the amount of content in the Italian Wikia.
* 4th [[w:c:it:Wikia Centrale:Spotlight|spotlight]] in the sidebar so that people know other good Italian wikis already exist.
* [[helpwiki:Activity Feed|Activity Feed widget]] - this helps Google to find new pages. It could be placed on the home page instead. It's also a useful way of highlighting that the wiki is active for people that don't use recent changes.
* [[w:c:risposte|WikiRisposte]] widget so that people can ask questions from this wiki about any topic - this is especially useful here as many people come in after searching on Google and they actually wanted information about that thing, not a funny page about it. Right now, a huge number of people leave very quickly because the page isn't what they were looking for. If they can ask a question on WikiRisposte instead, they be more likely to stay and revisit Wikia.
* A link to [[Speciale:MyHome]] which is a page that helps people be more deeply involved in the wiki. You can see hot discussions and the latest activity without having to go through lots of diffs on recent changes. Admins can add important notices to [[MediaWiki:Community-corner]] to make sure people see them. In future, more options will be added to MyHome, such as a note suggesting tasks people can do - such as pages for improvements or wanted pages.
I also want to say that this isn't about the ads. It's about expanding the Italian Wikia, getting more people to stay on Wikia instead of leaving after 1 pageview, and getting more people to join the community and start editing. If there's a way to do that without monaco, then I'll be happy too, but I do think the above parts need to be somehow added to monobook to make that happen. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 04:38, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
Hi Angela, so you want to use Nonciclopedia for attract italian user around all Wikia. Right? I understand your motivation, but consider that italian internet users are almost informatic-illiterate and waste 80% of their time on fa''k''ebook and P2P.
And, besides Wikipedia, they use wikis mainly for read or for joke (as Nonciclopedia). They haven't still reached a real ''wiki-culture'' and for this your goal may be difficult to achieve.
Moreover, month ago, we created a [http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nonciclopedia/36744616881 fan page] that we use for publish link and content for attract users. Perhaps you know that pages have powerful and detailed insight, as these that i will share with you:
;Fan numbers, age 13-17:
*men 27%
*women 15%
*total 42%
;Fan numbers, age 18-24
*men 31%
*women 15%
*total 46%
;Fan numbers, age 25-34
*men 6%
*women 3%
*total 9%
;Fan numbers, age 35-44
*men 1%
*women 1%
*total 2%
As you see, a big part of them are teenagers and maybe are perfect for Twilight Wiki, Naruto Wiki, etc. But the problem is that they do not take seriously wiki-editing. Well, perhaps are these the reason of few editors, before skin question.
However, while waiting for vector, we will be glad to help you to make a more "attractive" monobook. Some month ago i created [[Utente:Zaza/Sandbox/PopBox|a sidebar with hover Progetti and Community box]] (clear the cache and wait javascript load). This system could be used for free space for add the things you've written above and organize better the links.
If you want, we can try to make a draft with your help and advice. --{{utente:Zaza/firma}} 15:22, dic 1, 2009 (CET)
:Hi, I'm back! All right, here's what I think about your proposal:
* '''Activity feed widget''': The main page is continuously updated with new content already, so I think visitors can already se for themselves that the wiki is active. Also, as you can see [http://www.google.it/search?q=campari+nonciclopedia here], new articles appear in Google results very quickly already.
* '''WikiRisposte''': I don't think that most of our readers get on our site after searching for actual information. Our most popular pages are clearly humouristic in the title itself, and searches about serious arguments get the corrisponding Wikipedia page in the results right above ours. However, we may put a link to ''<nowiki>wikirisposte.wikia.com/Special:Search/{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}</nowiki>'' in the sidebar - but the widget is just too invasive to me.
* Other things are fine - indeed, MyHome seems even nice ;)
Thanks for your attention. --{{utente:sanjilops/firma}} 23:29, dic 1, 2009 (CET){{VF|1203906}}
:Thanks for yourreplies.
:There are already lots of Italian internet users doing good things on Wikia, so I can not agree that they are mostly informatic-illiterate.
:5 popular wikis include [http://it.lostpedia.wikia.com/ Lostpedia], [http://it.mario.wikia.com/ Mario], [http://it.halo.wikia.com/ Halo], [http://it.metin2.wikia.com/ Metin2], and [http://it.witcher.wikia.com/ Witcher].
:[http://it.paesaggioix.wikia.com/ Paesaggio IX] is a great wiki which was very active earlier this year.
:[http://memory-alpha.org/it/ Memory Alpha] and [http://it.soggettopedia.wikia.com/ Soggettopedia] both have strong communities regularly editing them.
:The widget can be closed if you find it invasive, but we've found a lot of people do want to ask questions there. For the short time that monaco was enabled here, lots of unregistered users asked questions such as [[w:c:risposte:È opportuna l'applicazione di sanguisughe per prevenire le malattie cardiovascolari|È opportuna l'applicazione di sanguisughe per prevenire le malattie cardiovascolari?]]
:I'm glad you like [http://nonciclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Speciale:MyHome?&useskin=monaco MyHome].
:I would love to see a draft of how monaco could be improved to look more like your monobook. You can edit at [[MediaWiki:Monaco.css]], or you could [[w:special:CreateWiki|make a wiki]] just to test this out on.
:[[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 06:14, dic 3, 2009 (CET)
::Lots italian? Strong communities? Where?
::{| border="1" cellpadding="2" align= style="text-align:center"
!width="100"|wiki
!width="200"|active users last 30 days
!width="350"|edits made on main ns last 30 days
|-
|Lostpedia || 10 || [http://it.lostpedia.wikia.com/index.php?namespace=0&days=30&limit=250&title=Speciale%3AUltimeModifiche ≈ 250]
|-
|Mario || 12 || [http://it.mario.wikia.com/index.php?namespace=0&days=30&limit=250&title=Speciale%3AUltimeModifiche ≈ 250]
|-
|Halo || 6 || [http://it.halo.wikia.com/index.php?namespace=0&days=30&limit=250&title=Speciale%3AUltimeModifiche ≈ 250]
|-
|Metin2 || 5 || [http://it.metin2.wikia.com/index.php?namespace=0&days=30&limit=40&title=Speciale%3AUltimeModifiche ≈ 40]
|-
|Witcher || 5 || [http://it.metin2.wikia.com/index.php?namespace=0&days=30&limit=40&title=Speciale%3AUltimeModifiche ≈ 400, 90% italian user - 10% made by 1 not-italian user]
|-
|PaesaggioXI || 13 || [http://it.paesaggioix.wikia.com/index.php?namespace=0&days=30&limit=200&title=Speciale%3AUltimeModifiche ≈ 200]
|-
|Memory Aplha|| 11 || [http://memory-alpha.org/it/index.php?title=Speciale:UltimeModifiche&days=30&limit=1000&namespace=0 ≈ 1000]
|-
|Soggettopedia || 29 || [http://it.soggettopedia.wikia.com/index.php?namespace=0&days=30&limit=1000&title=Speciale%3AUltimeModifiche ≈ 1000, 80% vandalism]
|-
|Nonciclopedia || 997 || 500 edits made in ≈ 2 days
|}
::I know that Nonciclopedia is one of the most big wikis of entire wikia, it's just to understand what you mean with "lots" and "strong".
::Soggettopedia is a sort of Nonciclopedia's "articles dump". In other words, it's a wiki managed by ex-Nonciclopedians and composed by articles about things who nobody cares (because talk about unknow people, such as an unknow professor of an unknow school in an unknow city) deleted from nonciclopedia.
::PaesaggioXI is one of the less formatted wiki i ever seen. [http://it.paesaggioix.wikia.com/wiki/Introduzione_di_Jacques_Leenhardt Well formatted pages are images...]
::Sorry, but numbers agree with me about italian users, if these are really the other most popular italian wikia wikis...
::For what concern the skin, we already have a wiki-test and we will be very happy to make a draft of monobook with monaco widget and links.
::Thank you! --{{utente:Zaza/firma}} 16:15, dic 3, 2009 (CET)
::Wait, didn't you say that you were going to add those links and widgets to monobook? Why now are you saying again that you want us to get monaco? I think I had made myself clear: we can have monobook with some features from monaco, '''not''' monaco. There's no way we can make monaco look similar to monobook, and we can't force people to register just to display the site properly. I just checked: of the last 1400 registered users, over 1200 have zero contributions, and they all signed up during the days when monaco was up. Besides, we have many custom stylesheets and javascripts that are based on monobook and don't work on different skins.
::I'm telling you again: you can add the "new wiki" link, the 4th spotlight and MyHome to monobook, but we can't have a totally different skin. Please accept it. --{{utente:sanjilops/firma}} 17:02, dic 3, 2009 (CET){{VF|1206838}}
:::I know they look small compared to this one, but having 10 or 20 people on a wiki is actually doing really well compared to 1000s of less active across the Internet. But the point of promoting these more on popular Italian sites, like this one, is to help them grow more and there's obviously a lot of potential for them to do that. The [[wikipedia:it:Speciale:Statistiche|Italian Wikipedia]] is one of the largest Wikipedias with more than 633.000 articles and 8168 people active in the last month which shows there is potential for Italian speakers to be involved more widely in wikis on other topics. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 02:44, dic 7, 2009 (CET)
::::Ok, now I understand what you mean.
::::However, consider that Wikipedia exist from much time, is very very famous and populated by people with relatively high age.
::::What I mean with all this discussion, isn't that Italian Wikia do not need to be publicized, indeed... I only say that if you expect an editors boom across the others wikis, this will be difficult to reach.
::::But, I hope i'm wrong. ;) --{{utente:Zaza/firma}} 13:23, dic 7, 2009 (CET)
== Codename: Monabooktor ;) ==
Hi Angela.
Since in these days Wikipedia is changing his skin, i would ask you if Staff will implement Vector (the original from mediawiki or a Wikia-Vector) among Wikia's skins. As we discussed some month ago, i've also create a [[Utente:Zaza/Sandbox/Monabooktor|"monabooktor" test skin]] (wait the complete js loading), that is a sort of monaco-monobook-vector fusion with the components that you said last time and that represent our idea of a future skin. I've also added a test widget.
What do you think about? --{{utente:Zaza/firma}} 20:02, mag 22, 2010 (CEST)
:I don't know. [[user:sannse|sannse]] is the best person to ask about this. [[User:Angela|Angela]]<staff /> ([[User talk:Angela|talk]]) 02:07, mag 23, 2010 (CEST)
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